Curse

DivineEnvoy · Feb 14, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

It would seem that is you.

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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

And my proposition here is really there are elitists who want to have all PvE skills removed, because they care about DoA or titles.

I have never said I wasn't an elitist, but the "elitist" I was refering care about DoA or titles, and at the same time, they want to have all PvE skills removed. As you can see, I have been defending PvE skills here, which I believe, has allowed discriminated professions to join PuG's. How in the world is that me?

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Because it's a multiplayer game? Because whether I like it or not, I'm part of the GW economy? Because I strive to create good skillbars, and find it immensely annoying that I have to intentionally gimp myself, because whatever I do I will never be able to create a skillbar as good as an empty skillbar with Ursan?

Just because you bought Guild Wars and Guild Wars is a multiplayer game, it doesn't imply that you have the rights to choose what other players should play.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Very well, the ability to find non-ursan PUGs isn't completely lost. Everyone doesn't have GW:EN, and not everyone who do have yet realized that the best build for all areas in the game is 5 ursans and three monks, one of which carries quickening zephyr.

Wow what builds have you been playing with lately? As far as I know, there are a lot more builds out there that can out damage Ursanway, and the only reason people would use Ursanway for various areas is simple: they don't like to spend 3 hours into a task and end up failing. Ursanway is more or less an insurance; think about it, how many times do you get ditchers in a PuG?

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

First of all: nerfing one ridiculously overpowered and game-breaking skill doesn't equal nerfing all skills in the game, or that 90% of players have to quit the game - that's just stupid. Also there's still plenty of ridiculously overpowered skills in the game, like Pain Inverter, they're just not as ridiculously overpowered as Ursan.

You should read what other people who are against Ursan have been saying.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Second of all: I don't give a shit how much gold you have, if you want to wear butt-ugly FoW armor, or whichever pointless title you wish to display. It's absolutely of no interest to me. Grind away, farmboy, may your e-peen grow long and hard.

"An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

Nice ad hominem argument here, but too bad it's fallacious.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Third of all: let's try the reverse. Let's pretend ANet introduced a PvE skill which when used insta-killed all the mobs in the map and teleported their drops to you. Would you use it? Would you consider it overpowered? Could you see that this skill was bad for the game?

It seems that you are another one of them who tries to use the exaggeration contrast to confuse the readers. The consequence of having an instant-killing skill is different than the consequence of having Ursan. If Ursan is truly a negative affection to the game, and it is more or less the so-called truth, which we all should know, why do we need these exaggerations to compare something far more worse than Ursan to prove that Ursan is a negative cause (if that's true)?

If you don't believe me, here's a similar argument that used this exaggeration:
Person A: You can't throw that basket-ball, because it's dangerous.
Person B: But it's only a ball.
Person A: Imagine if you have a nuclear missle instead, would you throw it? You wouldn't, because it's dangerous.

As we all know, throwing a basket-ball is not considered to be dangerous, but with the exaggeration used by person A in the given example, it seems that throwing a basket-ball is dangerous as well.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Yes, you were. I'm a PvE player opposed to Ursan.

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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I never stated that you are an elitist. And my proposition here is really there are elitists who want to have all PvE skills removed, because they care about DoA or titles. I have never stated who else wants to have all PvE skills changed, removed or what so ever, and I have definitely not stated what kind of people they are. So what's wrong with my argument?

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Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Umm okay. What was your point there?

Ursan Blessing is really a skill invented from Norn's Bear Form. And I find it to be more overpowered as it is possible to combine actual skills with that skill. Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun.

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

yeah....i guess i should get my priorities straight eh? i guess the way you play pve should be the way it is.

What kind of argument is that? And you could say that you're arguing for others to play PVE the way you want to play the game as well just by entering this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

because other people vanquish zones and gain titles SO interupt your game play? get over yourself and your titles. noone gives a damn whether your titleless or 35+ titles.

I don't give a damn about titles, so stop bringing them up as if though everyone who thinks UB is bad for the game is only concerned about titles.

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

and yes, if this is all that you have to worry about in life, as well as the others, have issues.

As I said I don't give a damn about titles. And quit with the personal attacks already. You're getting worked up over the game as well, so your insult can apply to yourself as well. Maybe you have issues if some discussion on a forum is what you worry about in life?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Ursan Blessing is really a skill invented from Norn's Bear Form. And I find it to be more overpowered as it is possible to combine actual skills with that skill. Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun.

The Bear form in GW1 is a MONSTER SKILL. Have you not realized that monster skills are all overpowered compared to the skills we players can use? The monsters are supposed to be tougher and therefore have more powerful skills to make up for a lack of actual intelligent A.I.

Do you actually think that the current Bear form Monster skill is going to be the same for the players in GW2? Do you really want me to insult your intelligence and think that you believe that? Or maybe you're just reaching for straws here.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 14, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

The Bear form in GW1 is a MONSTER SKILL. Have you not realized that monster skills are all overpowered compared to the skills we players can use? The monsters are supposed to be tougher and therefore have more powerful skills to make up for a lack of actual intelligent A.I.

Do you actually think that the current Bear form Monster skill is going to be the same for the players in GW2? Do you really want me to insult your intelligence and think that you believe that? Or maybe you're just reaching for straws here.

I have never stated Bear Form will be the same for players in Guild Wars 2. However, it is still uncertain what it will be like, but it doesn't mean that Bear Form cannot be overpowered in Guild Wars 2 or even be the same in Guild Wars. I just point out how such possibility still exists. Seeing how you hate Ursan so much and the fact you would want to attempt to insult my intelligence on a statement I have never stated, I'll apologize for bursting your bubble.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 14, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I have never said I wasn't an elitist, but the "elitist" I was refering care about DoA or titles, and at the same time, they want to have all PvE skills removed.

Oh THAT elitist.
Have you considered that he maybe just exists in your head?

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Just because you bought Guild Wars and Guild Wars is a multiplayer game, it doesn't imply that you have the rights to choose what other players should play.

No, but neither does it mean that I may not speak my mind about it.

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Wow what builds have you been playing with lately? As far as I know, there are a lot more builds out there that can out damage Ursanway

You play ursanway, and you still haven't realized that what makes it godly isn't the damage, which is meh, but the damage mitigation?

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, and the only reason people would use Ursanway for various areas is simple: they don't like to spend 3 hours into a task and end up failing. Ursanway is more or less an insurance

Oh, so you DO realize that what makes Ursan godly is the damage mitigation. Why the strawman argument about so-so damage output then?

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You should read what other people who are against Ursan have been saying.

That they want PvE skills removed because they don't want anyone else to get the titles and wealth they got by using Ursan? You're right, I've not seen anyone say that.

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Nice ad hominem argument here, but too bad it's fallacious.

Calling you a farmboy? It's not an ad hominem if it's true, and you do want ursan to farm titles and wealth, do you not?

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It seems that you are another one of them who tries to use the exaggeration contrast to confuse the readers.

You mean like the false analogy you used?

Ridiculous attempt at muddying the issue with wall of confused text removed.

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Ursan Blessing is really a skill invented from Norn's Bear Form. And I find it to be more overpowered as it is possible to combine actual skills with that skill.

Uh, no. It's plenty overpowered all on its own. Drunken master, Quickening zephyr etc skills which make it even more overpowered merely elevate it from ridiculous to surreal.

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Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun.

Actually I am of the belief that there will be nothing but fixed skill bars a la Ursan in GW2.
Then Guildwars will finally be a clone of Magic The Gathering, with each player an animated MTG card, all individual skill finally removed from the game, and I will be playing... well, whatever FPS is most popular at the time.

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I have never stated Bear Form will be the same for players in Guild Wars 2. However, it is still uncertain what it will be like, but it doesn't mean that Bear Form cannot be overpowered in Guild Wars 2 or even be the same in Guild Wars. I just point out how such possibility still exists. Seeing how you hate Ursan so much and the fact you would want to attempt to insult my intelligence on a statement I have never stated, I'll apologize for bursting your bubble.

Right. I stated how I didnt want UB in GW2 and you link me to an entry of the Bear form and yet want me to believe you werent making any direct correlation to it. Riiiight.

And thanks for proving my point about our concerns about UB. If UB ends up in some form in GW2 like some of us fear, then this isnt just about titles as you and others keep trying to claim.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I wasn't even refering to you.

Then stop addressing UB naysayers as "all these elitist" as though we *all* want Ursan Blessing balanced for the same reason. The people who dislike Ursan Blessing because it allows people to get greens and rares faster are not the same people who want UB balanced because it harms the game.

And if you're not referring to me, why are you only referring to the one or two people in this thread, who have no point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Nice ad hominem argument here, but too bad it's fallacious.

/facepalm.

You, COMPLETELY, misunderstood what he just said.

DivineEnvoy · Feb 14, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Oh THAT elitist.
Have you considered that he maybe just exists in your head?

Check post 6 of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

No, but neither does it mean that I may not speak my mind about it.

Are you certain that you are only speaking your mind about it?

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

You play ursanway, and you still haven't realized that what makes it godly isn't the damage, which is meh, but the damage mitigation?

When did I say I play Ursanway?

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Oh, so you DO realize that what makes Ursan godly is the damage mitigation. Why the strawman argument about so-so damage output then?

There are hundred of builds out there, and why do PuG's always request to have certain builds like SS Necro or SF Ele? It's because these builds have proven to work, and it is believed that people can be productive with them. It's the same with Ursan.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

That they want PvE skills removed because they don't want anyone else to get the titles and wealth they got by using Ursan? You're right, I've not seen anyone say that.

Read this thread again.

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Calling you a farmboy? It's not an ad hominem if it's true, and you do want ursan to farm titles and wealth, do you not?

It's still an ad hominem argument even if it's true. And where in the world did you get the idea I would want to use Ursan to farm titles and wealth? I have been down in Random Arenas lately, and I guess that can be considered to be farming the Gladiator title, but I fail to see how it is possible to farm it with Ursan; care to explain? Secondly, there are hundreds of other ways to farm in the game, and I have been farming Fronis dungeon for gold. So how do I use ursan in that?

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

You mean like the false analogy you used?

Ridiculous attempt at muddying the issue with wall of confused text removed.

How is my analogy false?

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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Uh, no. It's plenty overpowered all on its own. Drunken master, Quickening zephyr etc skills which make it even more overpowered merely elevate it from ridiculous to surreal.

I was basically saying how it can be more powerful if it is used with actual skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Actually I am of the belief that there will be nothing but fixed skill bars a la Ursan in GW2.
Then Guildwars will finally be a clone of Magic The Gathering, with each player an animated MTG card, all individual skill finally removed from the game, and I will be playing... well, whatever FPS is most popular at the time.

Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Right. I stated how I didnt want UB in GW2 and you link me to an entry of the Bear form and yet want me to believe you werent making any direct correlation to it. Riiiight.

And thanks for proving my point about our concerns about UB. If UB ends up in some form in GW2 like some of us fear, then this isnt just about titles as you and others keep trying to claim.

If I have never made the corresponding statement, how do you know if I would have such intention if it wasn't merely an assumption? How do you know if such assumption is correct?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Then stop addressing UB naysayers as "all these elitist" as though we *all* want Ursan Blessing balanced for the same reason. The people who dislike Ursan Blessing because it allows people to get greens and rares faster are not the same people who want UB balanced because it harms the game.

I never addressed everyone who is against Ursan to be "elitists". Where in the world did you get that idea?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And if you're not referring to me, why are you only referring to the one or two people in this thread, who have no point?

Why can't I refer to them? And how do you know I am only refering to one or two people in this thread? Last time I checked, you don't know as you made the following statement: All the people who have been against Ursan in this thread could care less about DoA, titles, and money and more about the game itself. That statement is false. Yes, I am using an ad hominem argument here, but it's non-fallacious, since the appeal is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You, COMPLETELY, misunderstood what he just said.

Why should I care or even bother to reply to a fallacious ad hominem argument?

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

If I have never made the corresponding statement, how do you know if I would have such intention if it wasn't merely an assumption? How do you know if such assumption is correct?

You're purposely acting difficult arent you? You DID make the statement and here it is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun.

The second taunting sentence is a clear indication that you believe the overpowered Bear Form will be in GW2. If you didnt believe it would be the same form, you'd have nothing to taunt me with. So nice try.

Oh and I see what you're doing in your posts. Answering a question with a question. Nice tactic.

Tyla · Feb 14, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I don't give a damn about titles, so stop bringing them up as if though everyone who thinks UB is bad for the game is only concerned about titles.

I thought you practically NEED RANK TEN ursan to join ANY PuG these days...Ursan is a title-powered skill - people only concern about that title.
To me the person you quoted is quite stupid...

DivineEnvoy · Feb 14, 2008, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

The second taunting sentence is a clear indication that you believe the overpowered Bear Form will be in GW2. If you didnt believe it would be the same form, you'd have nothing to taunt me with. So nice try.

I'll try to make this simple for you.

"Ursan Blessing is really a skill invented from Norn's Bear Form. And I find it to be more overpowered as it is possible to combine actual skills with that skill. Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun."

"I have never stated Bear Form will be the same for players in Guild Wars 2. However, it is still uncertain what it will be like, but it doesn't mean that Bear Form cannot be overpowered in Guild Wars 2 or even be the same in Guild Wars. I just point out how such possibility still exists. Seeing how you hate Ursan so much and the fact you would want to attempt to insult my intelligence on a statement I have never stated, I'll apologize for bursting your bubble. "

Premisses:
1. Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2. (Line 3, Paragraph 1)
Conclusion:
1. Bear Form will be in Guild Wars 2 as well. (Line 3, Paragraph 1)

Premisses:
1. Bear Form will be in Guild Wars 2 (Previous Conclusion)
2. There is a clear relevance between Ursan Blessing and Bear Form (Line 1, Paragraph 1)
3. Bear Form can be even more powerful than Ursan if actual skills are used (Line 2, Paragraph 1)
4. It is uncertain what Bear Form will be like in Guild Wars 2. (Line 2, Paragraph 2).
Conclusion:
5. It is possible for Bear Form to be overpowered in Guild Wars 2.

Premisses:
1. It is possible for Bear Form to be overpowered in Guild Wars 2. (Previous Conclusion)
2. You dislike Ursan Blessing or something similar. (Line 4, Paragraph 1)
Conclusion:
1. There is a possibility for you to be upset in Guild Wars 2.

I have never indicated that I believe Bear Form will be overpowered in Guild Wars 2. I'm just stating that there's a possibility for it to be overpowered. There's a difference.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I never addressed everyone who is against Ursan to be "elitists". Where in the world did you get that idea?

For one, there are very few people with this view, especially in this thread. Two, their arguments hold little water, hence why it's immensely frivolous and silly to argue with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Why can't I refer to them? And how do you know I am only refering to one or two people in this thread? Last time I checked, you don't know as you made the following statement: All the people who have been against Ursan in this thread could care less about DoA, titles, and money and more about the game itself. That statement is false. Yes, I am using an ad hominem argument here, but it's non-fallacious, since the appeal is relevant.

You don't even know what that means. "Ad hominem," one of many logical fallicies, revolves around resorting to personal attacks or emotion. So no you are not using an "ad hominem" argument.

And again you are taking what I say *way* to literally, Divine. "One or two people" is mostly read as "a very small amount" or "a very small minority."

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Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Why should I care or even bother to reply to a fallacious ad hominem argument?

Because it isn't and is not in any way meant to be directed towards you?

wraithe · Feb 14, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

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Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Like OMG? lol??? U r so cool becuz u told peopoles to go out and see the sun!!!! lolz!! Dey are such loosers!!! Roffle roffle! OMG dat is so original!!!111 Lollers!!!

But seriously, you coming in here to retardedly oversimplify the issue is pretty darn retarded. Heck, it's a flat out lie.

English please so we can understand you.

Star Gazer like most of us are probably sick of you whiners going on about a PvE skill that anybody and everyone without restriction can use.

its not like its going to break the economy at all, when you have players using solo builds (without UB) and making a fortune.

So all i have to say is if you can not gain access to a team with Profession skills have UB at the ready..its called options.

wraithe

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

@DivineEnvoy: Quit trying to backpedal. You know you were in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by wraithe

English please so we can understand you.

Wow. I was CLEARLY using net speak sarcastically and even spoke normally in the second paragraph. Everyone else understood that but I guess you're one of the slow ones.

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Originally Posted by wraithe

Star Gazer like most of us are probably sick of you whiners going on about a PvE skill that anybody and everyone without restriction can use.

What does that prove? Does any of that mean that it's not imbalanced? Can you answer this? What's the point in having a game like GW where the complexity comes from creating builds from hundreds of different skill when you have this one skill that's not only imbalanced but creates a build for you and turns every profession into the same stagnant build?

I bet you can't answer and would rather throw out strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks by calling people elitist, title whiners, etc etc.

Just looking through this thread, there's a clear distinction that one side of this issue isnt capable of getting their points across intelligently and instead just relies on attacking the person instead of talking about what's actually said.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

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Originally Posted by wraithe

English please so we can understand you.

Star Gazer like most of us are probably sick of you whiners going on about a PvE skill that anybody and everyone without restriction can use.

its not like its going to break the economy at all, when you have players using solo builds (without UB) and making a fortune.

So all i have to say is if you can not gain access to a team with Profession skills have UB at the ready..its called options.

wraithe

We, that like to PuG in UW/FoW, don't have any options except for UB with 6 ursans + 2 monks or 5 ursans + 3 monks. I know you are too lazy to read whole thread, so just don't post and go play your Ursanway.

And stop saying that we are crying about balance in PvE, because A.Net's the one who TRIED to balance it before. Want to know what they nerfed because of PvE balance?

Protective Bond
Stoneflesh Aura
Mystic Regeneration
ofc most of Nightfall pve-only skills
Spirit Bond
Verata's Sacrifice
Ancestor's Visage
Sympathetic Visage
Angelic Bond
Shield of Absorption
Underworld (Nightmares)
Desert Crystal
3 chests in Witman's Folly
Drok's Run
The Deep
Armor stacking
Remain's of Sah-something

And none of those things were AS IMBALANCED as ursan. If they didn't care for balance, they wouldn't even touch those things, 'm I rite?

edit: Oh, forgot about loot scaling.

Tyla · Feb 14, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I think Abedeus hit the nail on the head then.

But I recall Protective Bond being nerfed due to a literally game-breaking bug.

Jenn · Feb 14, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

A little birdie told me that Ursan is imba because anet would rather you buy the expansion than nerf something into oblivion and lose money.

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

And stop saying that we are crying about balance in PvE, because A.Net's the one who TRIED to balance it before. Want to know what they nerfed because of PvE balance?

I'd like to add in the "AOE nerf" aka. A.I. mobs running away from nukes.

I can't believe people ignored all the previous balancing in PVE. UB just makes no sense after all that work in balancing the game.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Damn Abedeous, how come we hadn't thought of all that before??? Well played indeed, sir.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Well, it wasn't really that much of a nerf... Monsters were idiots to stand in AoE and it was imbalanced. Elementalists had to learn how to use a snare/get a tank with one. But yeah, too many balances were made in the past to ignore Ursan now.

GrimEye · Feb 14, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Let's be Lenon-like: Imagine GW Without Ursan.

Will the economy get better? No.

Will the discrimination vanished? No.

Will the button-mashing stop? No.

Will boredom go away? No.

Will people begin massive PUGGING again for camaraderie spirit? No.

Will it teach people to make better build and better player? No.

- Over two years without Ursan, and game was dominated by cookie-cutter build (which isn't exactly bad). But how many of the hundred of thousands, maybe millions, of people playing guildwars came up with an original build? 300 or 600 players (and Im being generous with the number)? That is 0.001 percent of 500,000 (we dont even have to consider million)? Are you part of these 300-600 people? That is, created a build that actually works and worth of note?

Ursan or no ursan, the problems of GW will remain. What next? Pain inverter? What next? All PVE-skills? Remove Titles? Remove HoM? Remove elite gloves and destroyer weapons? (You just took out over half the content of GWEN) What next? Kurzick/Luxon alliance skill? What next? Remove ritualist and assassin profession? Take out Urgoz/Deep? (just took out sizeable content of Faction) What next? Remove heroes? (just took out the heart of Nightfall content). What next? Ecto and UW/FoW?

So, in the end, what would be left? GW players would still be complaining of boredom, skill building skills, sucky pug, bad players and bad playing.

The way things are going, we are reducing everything to absurdity.

My take.

Abedeus: How would you "balance" Ursan? Remove it from the game? Or what? I guess this question is directed to all as well.